132. Best of Guests (2024): Part 1

As the end of the year approaches, it’s important to take a retrospective look to appreciate the challenges overcome, goals achieved, and lessons learned. In doing so, we can use the knowledge gained to build a stronger foundation for the year ahead.

In this episode, we're revisiting some of our featured guest episodes from 2024!

Related Episodes:

• Listen to Episode 87. Breaking the Binary (with Travis McMaster)
• Listen to Episode 89. Beyond the Brawn: Redefining Queer Masculinity (with Erick DuPree)
• Listen to Episode 91. Fat and Fabulous: Embrace Body Positivity (with Matthew Simko)
• Listen to Episode 93. Unlock Financial Freedom (with David & John Auten-Schneider)
• Listen to Episode 95. Take a Page from #GayBookstagram (with Rod Lujano)
• Listen to Episode 97. Diversifying Queer Horror Cinema (with Jose Nateras)
• Listen to Episode 99. Coming Out Later in Life (with Kevin O’ Connor)
• Listen to Episode 101. Sci-Fi: The Future is Queer (with TQ Sims)
• Listen to Episode 103. A Pulse Check on LGBTQ+ Healthcare (with Max Austin)
• Listen to Episode 105. The Pride Divide (with Tyrell Brown)
• Listen to Episode 106. Long Live Queer Nightlife (with Amin Ghaziani)
• Listen to Episode 107. Kiss & Release (with Anthony DiPietro)

Transcript

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Episode Introduction (00:20)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to a very special episode of A Jaded Gay.

You know, we are approaching the holiday season. We're coming to the end of the year, and this year we had a ton of guests on the podcast, which I love.

You know, within the LGBTQ+ community, we all have our own experiences, and I'm limited to just the ones I've experienced, so I love having other guests come on to share their experience and give us a broader understanding of the diversity within the LGBTQ+ community.

So, as we approach the end of this year, I thought it would be a great opportunity to do another Best of Guests episode.

We did it last year at the end of 2023, so this year we're doing it again to look back on the guests from 2024.

So, with that in mind, there's not going to be any tarot, any non-jaded vs. jaded gay today. None of that special stuff. We're going to just go right into it.

So, without further ado, I'd like to share with you some of the highlights from this year's guest episodes.

Breaking the Binary Travis McMaster (1:15)

Rob Loveless

Let’s bring on our guest. They are a public speaker, board member of Alder Health Services, and host of Caffeinated N' Queer.

Basically, they are a McMaster of all. Please welcome Travis McMaster. Hi, Travis.

Travis McMaster

Hey, Rob.

Rob Loveless

Would you mind going into a little bit more detail about in your relationship with your husband when you first begin identifying more non-binary and using they/them pronouns, how you brought that up in your, you know, with your husband, in your relationship, and how you, you know, how you started navigating that?

Maybe some challenges that came up, some, you know, resolution? Maybe advice you'd offer for people who are also, you know, in a relationship but wanting to come out with their non-binary identity?

Travis McMaster

Yeah, so, so I have a tendency to wear my emotions on my sleeve. So, when it, when I have something like I really need to talk about, I struggle to keep that close to the chest.

And so, I'm ready to talk about it. So, like when coming up to my husband as non-binary, we were actually on our way home from running errands and, and he was and, like, I can remember, like, I had it, like, burned in my brain, like being in the in the SUV that we had at the time, and, like, driving.

And what was it? What did you want to talk to me about? Or, like, did you want to talk to me about something? And I just, I froze, and I was like, Oh, I'm not. I wasn't ready for this conversation right now. And I was like, well, obviously you can't thaw a chicken and not cook it, right?

That's wasteful. So, I wasn't gonna not have the conversation. So, I was this is, this is who I am. This is how I now like this how identify, you know, and this is kind of the journey I've been going on, just to kind of figure all that out.

And Jer, my husband's name is Jeremy, I'm just lazy, so I call him Jer. He was just like, Okay. And that was kind of it like that in and of a nutshell, it was very much like that doesn't that doesn't really change who you are, like it.

It changes, obviously, who you like, are as in how you identify, but like, ultimately, you're still that same person. So that, I mean, that was a relief. Because honestly, like, I've had, I had the fear I'm like, well, no, I'm does that no longer make me the person that Jer married or signed up for?

Like, would he have that thought, you know, is it, like, who knows? You know, I had no idea how he's going to take it, so it's just a matter of ripping off that band-aid. Um, so, I mean, and he's been very supportive, you know?

And I think it's been, it's just been an educational journey as well, because he comes from that same camp of people at a certain time, like they're just the language wasn't there, right?

And so, he's, he's kind of crash coursing, if you will, for lack of a better phrasing on like, trying to stay up to date and just understand all the things.

Some of the challenges, I think, or the, I think the physical part of it in terms of, like, aesthetic, right? And starting to wanting to explore how I dress, different garments, and getting, kind of you said for a while prior to that, I think I had already been using a purse, again, super practical.

Everyone should get into it. Then my nails are painted and whatnot. And so a challenge for me, and I guess it's gonna get real personal, real deep, real quick, was the insecurity of, like still having that attraction between each other, right, where, at one point we we kind of had to have that difficult conversation where, you know, I kind of brought it up my insecurities, and, you know, it's kind of brought to my attention that that that was all in my head, basically.

So, I guess that lesson learned is like though difficult conversations are very hard to have, they are definitely worth having. In terms of pronouns, to talk about pronouns there.

There was a period of time where I would I was letting it skate with anybody, with everybody, because I just, I'm not really a confrontational person, right? Lover, not a fighter. Just kind of want to roll. I want to be cool with everybody.

But then it got to a point where I'm like, I don't like hearing myself be referred to in these in these different ways, like this is how I am. I am. I need to kind of put my foot down with that.

So it was specifically with Jer, you know, it was about finding that way that we could communicate where, you know, I wasn't getting frustrated because I knew there was no malicious intent, but making sure that he knew I was coming from a place of support, you know, and not, it wasn't an attack, you know. It wasn't like, oh, you screwed up my my pronouns, like, grrr.

It was like, you know, I hear that. You just remember, it's, it's they, it's them, whatever. What really, I think, started to help though, is when we did kind of come to terms of like, like, how can I be a better assistant?

So, if I heard it, just kind of lean in and just do the reminder. But then last summer, I had the opportunity to participate on a call with the Trevor Project had hosted and the person, and it was around identity, etc, and the person that led that call, shared a very fantastic exercise, which I'm going to share here to the how to learn someone's pronouns because, and I've applied it for myself too.

But the idea is that for anyone you're struggling to learn those pronouns, you block in your calendar five minutes every day at the same time.

So, you know you can do it for at least 21 days because it takes 21 days to build the habit. But then you say two to three sentences about this person using essentially all the pronouns you're trying to wrangle and better understand.

And so, in doing that, you know you're obviously making yourself feel good because you're talking about someone that you know, you hopefully, you know, have appreciation for admiration, etc.

So, you're kind of putting out that positive energy, but then you're also working on building that muscle memory to, you know, get used to that person's preferred method of being identified.

So, like, for example, you know, I would say, like, if I had a non-binary friend named Max, I might say Max is a fantastic drummer. They have amazing stick tricks. I always want them to be the drummer in my band, yeah. So that's like, again, a small little example, and it takes like, 30 seconds, right?

So, you do it every day. I've never asked Jer if he's implemented that, but, um, he's, he's gotten so good, like, with it. And, you know, does he sometimes slip?

He does, but it's so even a good friend of ours actually commented it when we had dinner the other week. He's so good about catching it. I mean, it's like, if it happens, it happens once, and then, like, he's back on it.

So, it's, it's cool to see the growth, and it's cool to see, I guess it's just cool to have that support. So yeah, in terms of tips, have this difficult conversations, you know, I'd like to believe that, you know, it is.

It's about hearts, not parts, right? So, like, that's not to say everything, like, things could go left, of course, but you got to have these conversations.

You've got to be able to give the person grace, you know, and be able to differentiate maliciousness versus genuine hiccups. And then, yeah, do that, do that daily exercise. So put it in your calendars every day, 21 days at least.

Beyond the Brawn with Erick DuPree (9:13)

Rob Loveless

Let’s bring on today's guest. They are a literary anthropologist specializing in the intersection of literature and culture. Please welcome Erick DuPree. Hi, Eric.

Erick DuPree

Hey. How are you?

Rob Loveless

Good, thanks. Why do you think it's so challenging to navigate the hard and fast binaries of masculinity and femininity that society places upon us?

Erick DuPree

Rob, I just want you to know that could be somebody's doctoral thesis and life study and I have sat with this question since we had our initial conversation about this podcast.

For those who are listening, I think it's first important to define masculinity a little bit, and that is to say in queerness and masculinity, and specifically, it's not until the end of the 19th century and into the 20th century that we get sort of the ideal look of what masculinity as we are currently defining it today. 

There's sort of an image that comes up at the when the Industrial Revolution really takes place. And in doing that, what happens is we forget that prior to that, people were out.

And so, you could be queer, you could be gay, but you're still going to get married, you're still going to have kids because that's how the proliferation of species happens.

And if you are queer and known, Oscar Wilde, for example, or any of the folk, you have a very specific look. You know, you're dandy eyes. You are highly effeminate.

But it's not prosecuted 100% in the same way that it starts to happen at the turn of that century when we sort of get this idea of like the industrialized man. And lots of writers have written about this industrialized man.

I think the how it translates today for queer folk, for queer men, is if you were raised, made fun of, mocked, beat up, called names, and not allowed to create an identity for yourself.

You are rebelling against that identity that's been put on you by sort of like finding a version of manliness, masculinity that that works for you, and because we're same sex, for many of us, there is a fetishization of what that ideal archetype looks like.

And that archetype that we as queer folk are living under starts, you know, with like Tom of Finland. It's very aggrandized, hyper-masculinized sort of concepts, huge genitalia, like all of these things. They're not new, you know, the Greek statue, or whatever, like huge it's not new, but it's definitely homoerotic.

And it parallels, I'm not sure if you know this, that work parallels with, first, the satire by The Village People of what macho looks like. And then it parallels with what is known as the mythopoetic men's movement, which isn't just gay men, it's all men who are in touch by this and you see on Instagram now all the time.

Like, let's go into the forest with no electricity, and we're gonna, like, chop some wood, and we're gonna, like, build a fire with sticks, because we're men. That literally comes from a person, Robert Bly, who wrote this book in 1990 called Iron John, and like, the Creation of the Man.

So that I'm not sure if that begins to answer your question, but we're told a story about what masculinity looks like, and for some men, that might be accurate, but for many queer people, it's just another form of assimilation to survive.

Fat and Fabulous: Embrace Body Positivity with Matthew Simko (13:15)

Rob Loveless

I'd like to welcome our next guest. He is a style and lifestyle expert who's proving that big boys do in fact, do it better. Please welcome Matthew Simko.

Hi, Matthew.

Matthew Simko

Hey, Rob.

Rob Loveless 

How are you today?

Matthew Simko

I am good. I'm excited to dive in. And thanks for having me.

Rob Loveless

Of course. Thank you for coming on the show. Very excited to have you here.

I feel body image for men, in general, is kind of an interesting concept because for so long, I think there were a lot of conversations around the negative messages about body image for women from media representation.

You know, billboards, magazine covers. I think it probably did occur to some level for men in general, but it wasn't as talked about, you know? Eating disorders were quote-unquote a women's disease. Men couldn't suffer from that, or else you were gay, you know?

But especially within the LGBTQ+ community, like I said, I think there's another layer of body image issues for gay men because for so long, there's been this, you know, you got to be the slim, young-looking twink, white, muscular, straight acting, all that stuff.

So, can you share your experience with body image within the gay culture?

Matthew Simko

Sure. And I think that sort of archetype that you described is what media portrayed gay men as, right? Like, that was their cookie-cutter of how to present as a gay man, right? You were slim, kind of this, this twink build, you were the life of the party, kind of all of those stereotypes that we think, right? 

Personally, I have, I always say that I've sort of been like all levels of big, right? Like, I've been, like, sort of big to really big. And for me, I felt like I never quite fit in any of those media portrayals of a gay man. 

Whether it was physically, whether it was how I sounded, how I talked, the things I did, it never quite felt right for me. And that's a struggle, right, to say, gosh, we're already a marginalized community. But now I feel marginalized within this community, and who else feels this way? Right?

And I think on some level, by creating categories within the gay community based on body types, right, we do, you mentioned twink, right? Now we're talking about twunks. So stupid, right?

We've got otters, we've got bears, we've got chubs, we've got a... what am I missing? I'm missing something in here, right? Bulls, muscle bears, they're like, all these different ones. Well, how do you fit within those, right?

Are you, are you slim enough to be an otter? Or are you a cub all of a sudden, right? Are you big enough to be a chub, or are you a bear? Are you muscley enough to be a bull, or are you a twunk? It's like, what are we talking about here?

So, at the end of the day, it's all about finding your tribe within the community. But it takes a long time to get there. And it takes a long time to get around like-minded people who you can really connect with. 

And it's not all about physical, even though that's how we tend to lead. I believe, as gay men, we tend to lead a lot with our physicality and our attraction to one another, whether that be through friends or relationships or hookups or any of that, right?

But we know at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what we look like, it's who we are and how we get along with people and sort of the roles that they fulfill in our lives. And do they make you a better person or part of your life a better person?

Are they, are they the levity you need? Are they the reality check? And that doesn't matter what their size is or how they present physically.

Rob Loveless

And you mentioned the groups before, the subdivisions of the twink, twunk, otter, bear. It's very confusing because I think those are all relative terms because the definitions vary greatly from people you ask.

Like, I know, somebody considers, you know, you have to be hairy to be an otter, otherwise, you're a twunk. And then, you know, within the bear community, some people, you know, just consider a guy who's not a stick, who has some body hair to be a bear where other people, you know, there's the subcategories of like, muscle bear, all these things that... 

I'm sure it started out good intentioned, where it was people trying to find themselves and their community. But I think in a way, it might actually kind of typecast a little bit, and people might make assumptions.

And it might actually, we might be in a time now where we should be more inclusive, but it might actually be kind of having us break away into cliques, so to speak, as opposed to being a unified community.

Matthew Simko

I mean, how many times have you heard it from someone where they'll say, oh, that's a bear event. I'm not going there. Right? Or, oh, it's all twinks at that bar, you know, or Friday nights are, you know, muscle daddies only.

And it's like, that precludes other people from attending those events, right? And then you're around people who look just like you or people who like the way you look, right?

So, you're sort of never getting the other side of it. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's not great.

Rob Loveless

Earlier, you kind of touched upon, with media representation, that for so long, it was pictured what we kind of talked about that archetype.

I think today, we still have come aways in body representation, and hopefully more diversity in general within LGBTQ+ portrayals, but it still seems like there's a pressure for gay men to adhere to a certain body size.

And again, maybe it's not even just what the archetype used to be. But it's like, you know, I'm considered an otter, I have to maintain this otter persona, or I'm a bear, I have to maintain this bear persona, or somewhere in between.

So, what factors do you think are fueling gay men to still feel pressured to adhere to certain body roles today?

Matthew Simko

I think there's always going to be trends, right, of sort of what the body type is.

I think even on social media, we're seeing, you know, we're seeing guys who consider themselves thicker, right? Or they say, winter bulk, or things like that. And they're sort of like barely, a little bit bigger than they were before, right, which minimizes, sort of, you know, people who are in bigger bodies.

And that sort of says, you know, we saw it in fashion in the 2000s, right? That a size eight was plus size or size 12 was plus size for women. It's like, what? Like that, that's, that's just insane, right?

So, I think we see that with trends that come through on the internet. And then I think within those groups, there's pressures of doing it, you know, if you've identified as a bear, or as a, as a twink, or any of these different roles, and you either, you know, intentionally or unintentionally change your body, or your body changes. What happens to that group of friends? What happens to that community? What happens to that network?

So, I think where we're more likely to maintain where we are, whether it's bigger or smaller, based on the people that are around us. You know, at the end of the day, I really think it comes back to we're the only ones that can be responsible for and in charge of our bodies.

And we have to remember that, like, we're, we're our own stewards of our body, and there shouldn't be outside influence on it.

Unlock Financial Freedom with David & John Auten-Schneider (20:15)

Rob Loveless

They are the creators of the Debt Lasso method, which they used to pay off $51,000 of credit card debt in three years.

They've been featured in Business Insider, Time, and The Motley Fool, among others, and now they're paying it forward to the LGBTQ+ community by helping them live fabulously without being fabulously broke.

Please welcome David Auten and John Schneider of Queer Money. Hi, David. Hi John. How are you today?

John Schneider

Hi there. Good, thanks for having us.

David Auten

Yeah, thank you.

Rob Loveless

There's kind of different trajectories for straight people versus gay people in terms of straight people have kind of this pre-defined path of finances, so to speak, where for gay people, we don't really have anything measured out like that.

But historically, gay men have also faced financial adversity, whether it be job discrimination or the inordinate healthcare costs during the AIDS pandemic.

So how have these struggles impacted generational wealth for gay men?

John Schneider

It's had a profound effect for gay men specifically, but I would argue for the LGBTQ+ community as a whole.

David and I often say that one of the challenges that gay men specifically have is in that pursuit of being the best little boy in the world, we've got to have all of those sort of outward displays of one's means of wealth, the cars, the vacations, the designer clothing, and all that.

And that's in part, a hangover from the HIV/AIDS crisis because there was sort of this ethos that was adopted during that time of live for today because tomorrow, I will die.

And that was a very likely scenario in the 80s and 90s. Well, obviously we've come a long way with the HIV/AIDS crisis, and I don't want to minimize the challenges that we still have today.

But it's not necessarily the death sentences that it was once upon time, and we're still sort of living that Carpe Diem philosophy in our lives because they kind of set a bar of what an ideal life looks like for a gay man. So, we're also sort of in pursuit of that still. I mean, you watch.

TV, and there's like, one archetype of what a gay man looks and acts like and how they live their lives. You know, it's Will & Grace.

It's Neil Patrick Harris, you know, it's just like these, these fabulous men, and we're all trying to sort of live up to that ideal.

And we clearly don't all have that the same kind of income. I mean, a great example is when David and I, during our party days, were spending this kind of money trying to pursue this life of fabulousness.

We were hanging out with doctors and lawyers who had obviously great incomes. And then on the other end of the income spectrum, we were hanging out with retail clerks and baristas and whatnot.

And there were a whole bunch of us, sort of in between. We all had this the same Diesel clothing. We all had the same fancy shoes. We all went on the same trips. Had the same happy hours.

We're all doing the same stuff. By all outward appearances, we all had the same lifestyle, but clearly, some of us could afford that way more than others of us, and we think a lot of that has to do with the hangover from the HIV/AIDS crisis, also coupled with the fact that many of us are sort of trying to make up for childhoods where we were treated inferior or weren't treated well.

And the best way is to prove the bullies in school wrong, or your family, if they, if they, if they kicked you out, that they're wrong about you, is, look how amazing I am. If I'm this amazing, I must be loveable, right?

We're sort of in pursuit of that, that love, and unfortunately, many of us don't sort of get a slap in the face until it's it's too late in life.

We'd get a lot of our most reoccurring emails from gay men in their mid-50s to 60s who say they haven't saved a penny for retirement and they want to retire yesterday. So, what options do they have?

And it's just, we just think that a lot of that has to do with the fact that many of us are trying to live a good life today.

It's called, it's a psychological term called hyperbolic discounting, where we sacrifice tomorrow in pursuit of today. And eventually tomorrow is going to come around, and you want to prepare for that.

But most LGBT people don't do that, and most straight couples don't do that. It's not like they have a, that they're, that they're rocking it with their money, right?

And we know a lot of straight couples who by the time they reach their 40s and 50s, they're like this path of happiness that I was designed for me decades before I even was born is actually not what I wanted to live, but society did let me live otherwise.

Rob Loveless

Like you said, with the AIDS pandemic now we're in a point where it is more so a chronic illness than a terminal one.

We've come a long way where, you know, gay men and LGBTQ+ people can live a long and healthy life.

So, with that in mind, going from the 80s to today, what's the financial state of the LGBTQ+ community, and what are some unique challenges we face?

David Auten

Yeah, so John and I were, we've been fortunate enough, in part because we were the first, first people in the personal finance space to actually start talking about the nuances and the differences between being part of the LGBT community and our finances, kind of that intersection.

John and I have been fortunate to partner with a number of organizations. And in 2022 and 2023 we partnered with the Motley Fool, which is a very large financial education platform.

They also do, they manage folks' assets and things like that, but they do a lot of education around investing and money, and we partnered with them.

And it for two years in a row, we surveyed roughly around 2,000 LGBT folks with a heavier weighting towards trans and non-binary folks, because oftentimes they get left out of this, these kind of data sets. 

So, we specifically looked at the, at the our community, and said, what are what's going on with the state of our finances?

And it's really interesting that there's some really positive data that's coming out of that, or information that's coming out of that, but there's, at the same time, there's a lot of data that kind of aligns with the feelings that people have in the community about our financial state.

Both years, we saw roughly around 55% of folks who responded to the survey said that they stress about their money on a daily or weekly basis, and we know that that data about the general population says that roughly about 70% of the general population stresses about their finances. It doesn't qualify as to how often, but if you include all of the data about our community, it's more aligned with the general population, more, actually, more of us stress about our money than the general population.

And I think it speaks to this idea of that's the stressors or the demands on our money in as LGBT people, where we either choose to live or have to live because of safety.

The way in which we kind of feel like we're compelled to spend our money. All of these things add to our financial stress.

And so, in general, the community is either stressed about their money or not looking to use or not using the tools that are available to us to actually improve our financial situation.

I think that many of us in the community are almost like the the deer in the headlights scenario when it comes to our finances. We we we catch that glimmer of light and we just freeze. Right? What do I do?

I don't know what to do. Nobody is helping me. So, we just freeze and we don't do anything.

And that's, I think in part why, like John said, we have so many in our community who wait much, much longer to actually start engaging in their finances.

And for that reason, many of us are in a in a really difficult spot when we finally do start to engage with our finances. But there are some glimmers of hope.

One of the things that we did see in the study is that 38% of individuals who identified as trans are earning $100,000 a year or more, which is more than the general population.

General population, 31% of the general population has a salary of $100,000 or more. So, there are some glimmers of hope.

We know that there are people in the community who are doing some of the things that they need to do to try to help themselves financially.

Take a Page from #GayBookstagram with Rod Lujano (28:40)

Rob Loveless

He is a dog dad and bookworm and read 138 books in 2023, which equals approximately 38,463 pages. Please welcome Rod Lujano. Hi, Rod.

Rod Lujano

Hi, how are you, Rob? 

Rob Loveless 

Good, thanks. How are you today?

Rod Lujano

I'm great.

Rob Loveless

Perfect. Why do you think having gay representation in literature is so important?

Rod Lujano

It is very important, because, you know, we all have the right to see ourselves represented in the media, you know. You can call it books or TV or movies. Like, we all have the rights to see each other to see ourselves out there. It gives us a sense of not being alone, I think. You know, a sense of community. You get to think, you know, there's more people like me out there, right? People who think like me, or, or like the same things that I do. And also, it's true to the world, queer people are everywhere, and it's only appropriate that books and everywhere mirrors that.

Rob Loveless

And how would you say your identity as a gay man influences your reading preferences?

Rod Lujano

Like I said, I want to see myself represented in that. So, I think you know, so but I mostly read male/male romances, you know, even though that I might not look like you know, the main characters on those books. I think our backgrounds could be similar, our train of thoughts can be alike, and we share some of the same struggles. That's why I always look for male/male romance

Diversifying Queer Horror Cinema with Jose Nateras (30:06)

Rob Loveless

So, with that in mind, let's get into the episode. He is an actor, screenwriter, and fellow NineStar Press author, and a whole lot more things that I can't list off because there's just way too many to name. But I'm very excited to introduce our next guest.

Please welcome Jose Nateras. Hi Jose, how are you?

Jose Nateras

Good. How about you?

Rob Loveless 

Doing well, thanks. It's a Friday so can't complain.

Jose Nateras

Right?

Rob Loveless

So, growing up and aspiring to break into acting and writing, was LGBTQ+ representation in media important to you?

Jose Nateras

Yeah, it was. I mean, alongside being a gay man, I'm also a Mexican American, so I'm Latino. And representation is something that has always sort of mattered in ways that, when you're young, you don't really understand or really register.

But I did find influencing me even as a child, especially because I was somebody who knew what I wanted to do so early on. But for a lot of my life, I was always kind of searching, searching for somebody that I could see myself reflected in that wasn't there. And that's hard. It makes you feel like you don't exist, you know? It makes it feel like it's really hard to imagine a future for yourself if you're not seeing examples in the stories that matter to you as a child.

You know, I remember being young, wanting to be an actor and reading Harry Potter. And you know, child delusion. The very first movie came out when I was 11. You know, I'm the same age as, like, Daniel Radcliffe, and all those people or whatever. But I remember when that movie came out, and just like looking at the screen and being like, aw it should have been me. You know, just like the delusional child of like, I should have played Harry Potter as this like, little Mexican boy in suburban Chicago, you know? Like, absolutely not.

But I think part of it is, I was hungry to see myself as a hero in the story, in the type of stories that I care about, you know? And as an actor, especially as I got into it as a career, a lot of those auditions, especially early on, were gangbangers or lawn care professionals or immigrants, you know, all of these other things.

And it's not to say that those characters in those stories don't matter. They do, A, but B, they're not being told in a way to reflect and respect that they matter, right? They're always plot devices, side elements, you know, background information, or whatever, for the white cis straight hetero heroes to kind of deal with or navigate.

But B, that's not it. Like, that's not all of the experience of being Latino in the United States/the world, you know. And that's not the sort of limitations that I want for the future for myself or for other people. 

So, I always knew that those things mattered to me and it also applied to my experience as a gay man, you know? I didn't really see a version of queerness that represented me or how I felt. And when you're young and sort of figuring out who you are, especially if you don't have like a lot of queer adults in your life.

And you know, in the early 2000s, A, there wasn't a lot of examples in the media, but B, in suburban Chicago, I didn't have a lot of that, like, not overt out queerness in my environment. Now, in retrospect, you're like, oh, yeah. And now, today, even in, you know, when we were making this movie, I went back and did a talk at my old high school. Just that, the presence and visibility of queerness is different, so much different now than it was.

But that hunger did matter to me, you know when you're figuring out or coming to terms with your sexuality. You're like, oh, I can't be gay, because the only gay people I see on TV are like that or like this. And I'm not like that. I'm not like this. And a lot of that leads to internalized homophobia, you know. A lot of that leads to self-hate, a lot of that makes it a lot harder to come to terms with who you are or figure out who you are or come to terms with your sexuality.

So like, representation in media isn't just, oh, we need to see it because it's a good, you know, motto. Representation matters. It matters because these stories affect the way we live our lives and figure out who we are and how we move through the world. And it opens the doors to possibility in the future, you know?

It's really hard for queer youth to imagine a future for themselves if they're not seeing an example of that somewhere. So yeah, and that's a little bit wordy, but all that's to say that, yes, these things have always mattered for me, to me.

And I've always wanted to make sure that I'm creating opportunities for performers like myself. For myself? Sure. But like myself, in whatever, fill-in-the-blank sort of definition that that might apply.

Coming Out Later in Life with Kevin O’Connor (34:59)

Rob Loveless

So, with that in mind, let's bring in today's guest.

He is an author, public speaker, and former teacher who learned how to embrace his sexuality and live authentically as a gay man at 55. Please welcome Kevin O'Connor.

Hi, Kevin. How are you today?

Kevin O'Connor

Hi, I'm wonderful. Good to hear from you from Philadelphia. It's good to be in the same time zone that together with with you. So, I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Rob Loveless

Thank you for joining. I think this is a really important conversation to have. So, I'm glad you're here today.

From a young age, you definitely recognized the attraction to men and that there was something different there.

But like you said, I believe it's around 29 years of going through this, repressing this part of you.

So, do you remember the moment where you began accepting your your sexuality and your authentic self and exploring what it might mean to come out?

Kevin O'Connor

I guess I got clues along the way that it was that it was going to be more accepting. Not that I, I guess one of my first clues was even as a 29-year-old when I was coming out, when I was dealing with the breakup of the first marriage, and I was able at that time to talk to my dad. I had been going to some counseling and counseling sessions.

And heading, having spoken to my, my first wife about this attraction to men, and she's the one that said, well, why don't we Why don't we go talk to somebody? Why don't we get some help? So that led me into counseling, which led me into the counselor saying, why don't you? Who can you talk to about this?

I thought, well, maybe I can talk to my dad. So, I did at age 29. And just started to bring it up, and told him about the experience that I had had in college 10 years prior.

And he knew he knew the guy that I was talking about. And he started to just talk about he knew people in his life. And it wasn't he didn't think it was that unusual.

And he used that the which I've heard many times the spectrum your your Are you a one gay or a 10 gay? Or where do you fit on the homo/heterosexual spectrum?

And he said we're all we're all different points along that. And I think maybe his take at the time was, sometimes we're at different spots in our life there. So, we had this discussion.

We never talked about it again. I ended the marriage ended. And like I said, a few years later, I was married again. But we didn't go back to that discussion at all with him.

He died in three or four years later. So, I guess, but having that discussion with him, you asked about my first sign. That was the first thing that I thought, well, there are people to talk to about this.

And not only my counselor, but if my father is okay with this and then even with my first wife, knowing that she's the one that said, let's let's, why don't you go to some counseling, and then being able to tell her brother and sister-in-law about it, and unpack it with them a little bit?

So, and those audiences weren't audiences for like, they weren't a push away Audience. They weren't. They were more okay; this is part of your story. And rather than rather than so I got that to that point when I was 29, or 30, 29. Yeah.

And what did I do? I just thought, okay, I got, I'm here. But I am going to, I'm going to find somebody else to pair up with and spend another 24 years 25 years in a marriage that was not easy. It was not difficult, probably because we were we probably weren't ready to get married.

Had a kid or a child right away. And then and then me having this this area in my abdomen that was always urge inching on wanting to come out. So so that so I came across the increments, so my dad being one of them.

And then another stepping stone was just my son, my son was 16, 17. And just the way he was the kinds of things he was, I was discovering on his computer and the things that I would overhear him talking and more.

So, the things that I saw, hidden in his room, and I thought, there's something going on here. And it was he was me.

He was me from a few years before and I, part of me didn't want him to have to go through everything I had done.

So, I I found a way to have that conversation with him and just having that conversation even though it was very difficult. And he was resistant to that idea. The card was on the table.

And that's when I started to I, I was then back in counseling, I think then, and my wife would come in and out of counseling with me. And at that point, I thought this is this is it I've got I've got to do this and, and probably true for most of us whenever whenever we decide to come out um, you reach a point where has to happen, I'm willing to take the risk, I'm willing to. At that point it was, I had a few years left in my career as a principal.

My kids were out of high school of college age. My second wife knew by this point because I was, she asked me and I told her, but then I just said, I can't, I can't live, I can't live this way anymore. And so that's when I decided to.

And I by that time, I had developed a calm a camaraderie of other friends, men that have friends I knew that had revealed to me they were going through a similar situation, I did some searching. I don't think we had online 30 years ago.

But I found ways to find other people that were in marriages that were trying to deal with that and what do you do? And then, lo and behold, I met a couple of college friends that told me, that's what they were experiencing.

And they were a big, big, big help, to help me come to come to this. And then this helped me through the process. So that's, that's how I did it. At age 50, 53, 54, 55.

Sci-Fi: The Future is Queer with TQ Sims (41:32)

Rob Loveless

So, with that in mind, I'd like to welcome our next guest. He is a bookstagrammer, his Instagram boasts of books, butts, and other gay stuff, and he is the author of Godspeed, Lovers.

Please welcome TQ Sims.

Hi, TQ. How are you today?

TQ Sims

Hi, Rob. I'm feeling great. Happy to be here.

Rob Loveless 

Awesome. Well, I'm very excited to have you on today. And I really enjoyed your book so I'm excited to talk all about that and share it with the listeners.

Rob Loveless

Were you always into the sci-fi genre? Had you always written that and gravitated towards it?

TQ Sims

Yes, yes. I remember, from a very young age, I was really into Space Ghost, and which was like this really weird cartoon. I think it came on really early Sunday mornings. I was really into that.

I really loved Justice League, Superman, was really into Star Wars. I really loved X-Men.

I lived in a small town and at the grocery store, they would occasionally get an X-Man comic. And I was always so happy when I could get it because I know that there were probably so many other kids, like, trying to get that one comic that came to town. And like there was no chance of, like, following continuity of the story. But I definitely picked up on the queer subtext.

And so like, all of that has really influenced my storytelling now.

Rob Loveless

Was there something specific about, you know, Justice League, Star Wars, X-Men, any of those sci-fi series that really drew you in from a young age?

TQ Sims

Yeah, I think it's the idea of found family and connecting with a sense of power, and using that to benefit others. Which sounds so hokey, but I love that stuff.

Like I feel like, you know, that's a good message for, for our community and our world is to, to really take care of each other and to connect with this power that we're taught we don't have when actually, we always have it.

Rob Loveless

And, you kind of, I think some of those answers there answers the next question, but beyond just yourself for maybe the larger LGBTQ+ community, it seems like there is a lot of queer appeal within the sci-fi genre. Why do you think that is?

TQ Sims

I think, because, as queer people, we sort of have to be on this constant journey of self-discovery and self-expression, which often goes against what we're told we should express by many people. Not by everyone, but by many people.

And I think sci-fi just it takes so many risks and it paints in such broad strokes with an array of colors. And I think that's really attractive to people who are using their own imagination to discover who they are. So, I think that's why queer people are attracted to sci-fi.

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, who are some of your favorite queer-coded sci-fi characters?

TQ Sims

So, queer-coded, I feel like not explicitly queer. Probably, Poe and Finn from the new Star Wars trilogy are, you know, I really love their bromance, but I, I have a thing for Oscar Isaac. So, I really love their bromance

And you know, there are others that I thought of, and now I can't think of them. But the one that really stands out, in my mind is Ruby Rhod from The Fifth Element with this amazing performance by Chris Tucker.

Like, I just remember the first time I watched that movie and Ruby Rhod came out, he's so extravagant, so over the top, and so sexual. And it just, like really hit a nerve with me that it's just like, so amazing to see this character who I could identify as queer, even if the rest of the audience couldn't.

Rob Loveless

And I know what you're saying about Poe and Finn. I... there was always that kind of like, underlying bromance there.

And I know Disney said, oh, in the last movie, there's going to be a gay kiss. And I was hoping it would be that, but it was like two people way in the background there. So, I was a little disappointed by that.

TQ Sims

Like for, like, half a second. Yeah.

Rob Loveless

Yeah.

TQ Sims

I feel like we got baited there.

Rob Loveless

Definitely. Disney knows what they're doing.

TQ Sims

Yeah.

A Pulse Check on LGBTQ+ Healthcare with Max Austin (46:26)

Rob Loveless

So, with that being said, let's get into the episode. He is a fellow Spectrum Books author, and his memoir, How Can We Be Wrong?, was recently published.

Please welcome Max Austin.

Hi, Max. How are you?

Max Austin

Hi, it's good to meet you. How are you?

Rob Loveless 

Doing well, thank you. It's been a relaxing weekend. So always a good thing here.

Max Austin

Oh, fantastic. I'm so excited to be here and talking to you. And thank you for listening to me.

Rob Loveless

Of course. Well, I'm very excited to have you on here and have you share your story and everything about your book to the audience here.

Going through your career, especially back in the early days when there was still very much a stigma around HIV and AIDS, what specific challenges or discrimination in the workplace as a gay healthcare professional did you experience, and how did you navigate those situations?

Max Austin

Oh, thank you. Let me explain. From my personal perspective of what happened.

My partner at the time, not my husband who I've been with for 30 years, but my partner at the time was training as the first male midwife in the area. It was really high profile actually. And everyone knew him, and they knew me.

And then, one night, he met me after a late shift and said only three things: I'm HIV positive, the hospital had found out, and we've got to go into hiding for our own protection.

I never got to hear the fourth thing that I really needed him to say: he never told me that he loved me. And I had no idea about any of it. So, it was a real shock.

Rob Loveless

I'm sure. And especially when healthcare should be helping to take care of people with, you know, viruses, illnesses, what have you. But instead of being able to feel like you can go to your employer or go to a health care professional to be treated for your diagnosis, you feel like you have to hide to go into protection.

Max Austin

Yes, we were, we were stigmatized. And good God, how I survived, I'll never know. It was just horrendous when we got back from hiding. And sadly, that same stigma followed me around for years. And it still does now in some circles.

I won't tell you the words that some of our staff used. You couldn't broadcast this otherwise, you really couldn't. And there were lots of examples of the pain that I suffered at the hands of the management and these so-called nurses.

I remembered that I wasn't allowed to use the toilets. And, all of a sudden, everyone had their cup, their own cup with a name on it. How I dealt with that is I accessed mental health support to deal with my trauma and rejection.

And from that, I'm like a phoenix. I'm now actually trained as a counselor myself through that lived experience.

But we know from the research that I'm sadly not the first, and I won't be the last person who identifies onto our LBGTQIA umbrella to suffer discrimination when accessing health care or to suffer from mental health problems. But the more we talk about it, the better it becomes.

Rob Loveless

I think it's really powerful because I think for so long, people didn't have those conversations within the LGBTQ+ community. You know, HIV and AIDS was something that obviously there was a lot of stigma around.

So, people felt they had to hide who they were, you know, even if somebody was not HIV positive, they felt that they needed to hide that they were a gay person because people were going to assume that they were HIV positive just by being gay when clearly, that's not the case.

And then even further, you know, things like mental health and general health, people just didn't talk about. So, I think today having those conversations, and again, having the treatment in place where HIV does not need to be a terminal illness, but it's a chronic one. We're moving in the right direction of having these conversations of putting, you know, emphasis on our health and being aware of our health conditions.

So that being said, what kind of impact can a healthcare provider's sexual orientation have on the patient-provider relationship? And how do you, as a kind of a part two to that question too, how do you ensure a supportive and inclusive environment for your patients?

Max Austin

Well, can I answer that one from a personal perspective as a nurse, please Rob?

My experiences have told me over the last 30-odd years that healthcare professional professionals, I can't get me words out, I'm sorry, just need to be kind and celebrate difference.

Because I'm a living life, living, breathing example of what happens to people's physical and mental health in our community when inclusion just doesn't happen.

And let me tell you, as a senior nurse, none of that is happening on my watch. I'm on a mission to make sure that everybody's welcome.

The Pride Divide with Tyrell Brown (51:16)

Rob Loveless  

I am very excited to welcome our next guest.

They are the executive director of the radical social justice organization GALAEI. Please welcome Tyrell Brown.

Hi, Tyrell, how are you?

Tyrell Brown  

Hi, how are you, Rob? Nice to meet you. Officially.

Rob Loveless  

Nice meeting you too. Thank you for joining us today. We have a very exciting episode. I'm glad to have you on to talk about a very important topic.

What would you like to see in future Pride celebrations?

Tyrell Brown  

Really, in a dream world? I mean, I mean geographically speaking, in Philadelphia, in a dream world, I would like to, I would like for Pride to continue to expand and for to take Broad Street like, I think that would be like, just absolutely epic, epic.

And I would like to see more institutions that aren't necessarily, that aren't corporations, get involved. You know, like some of our houses of art and influence, the symphony house, you name it, right, all of these big odes to, you know, art and culture in Philadelphia, I would like to see them more involved in a substantial way, lifting up not just their ERGs, but really like engaging in the performance value and adding art and beauty to the event. I would like to see, I would like to see more stages for more people to perform.

I would like to have more money into it so that I could really compensate, you know, the people that are helping to develop this, including myself, um, like, I would like to see that, you know, in a way, you know, that, you know, actually, like, validates the kind of labor we put in in this state that we're in in this world, right?

You know, like, I for the three years that I've never taken a salary from this. Like I said, I've gone in the red many times. And you know why it's a labor of love.

I'm like, you know, I'm tab in my pocket right now, like, jeez, like, and I and I really want there to be a not just for me, but for future generations, for there to be something that's in place there, so that these events exist sustainably and now, so, so that we're not tasked with, like, running around with our heads cut off, seeking, you know, donations and finances in order to make them go but really, so that they can exist sustainably and untethered from, you know, from Like a corporate heartbeat, right?

They need to be sustainably resourced, even if that's part of the mechanism. But that the stake in that is not that you get to claim it as your own right?

Not pink-washing corporations or rainbow-washing corporations, but instead them actually investing in us on the front end, because we are their staff. We are the people that make their systems go.

And ultimately, instead of the pizza party, the payback is this, right?

The payback is when you actually give to foundations and give to into nonprofits. You give to charity, you give to directly to people in a restorative manner, in order to be able to, like, do what they will and liberate themselves, rather than kind of going through all these metrics to kind of skirt around there and then take credit for what's being done.

You know, I remember the first, you know, like the Target Pride T-shirts, and don't even get me started on that Juneteenth ice cream a couple years ago that was like, what? Excuse my language, what the fuck? 

Like, it was like, it was crazy. I was like, what is that? Right? But, you know, I think we've come to a time where, like, those conversations, people are tired of having those conversations.

Y'all already know better. We know you know better. You know you know better too. Like so it really now it's just like, well, you know, what's the restorative measure here? What does that look like?

And, you know, I think that might look different to everyone, and it's up to each individual to determine, and then collectively as a community, we can have that conversation and lift up those demands to other folks.

But you know, right now, with one event, you know, and you know, just, I guess, a few thousand voices that are saying that they enjoy it.

To say the least, not a few thousand is last year, it was like 60,000 pat myself and back, right? But, you know, with that many people that are saying they enjoy it, and some people saying jeez, like this was the best Pride ever.

I'll never forget, like, there was like a 70-year-old dude walking down Locust Street, and like, he was like, did you all create this? I still have my T-shirt on, my walkie. Did you all create this?

And a couple of the staff, former staff here, will remember this. And we were like, yeah. He was like, and his eyes welled with tears, and he was like, it was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.

And I was like, Oh my god. That was, like, amazing, like, this queer elder in community, and I heard that also from the mentor that said to me, like, he would probably be annoyed if I mentioned his name, but I'm going to, Jose DeMarco, who said to me, you know, if you, if it's calling from you do it right?

But when he, one of the things he told me afterwards was like it was the most beautiful thing he'd ever seen, and that, that, to me, is what counts. It's, it's what counts.

It's not just the people that are close to you that say that, but also people that inspire you, and also strangers that that walk away calling like, wow, that was a pinnacle moment in my life.

So, so yeah, I hope that more more things, more resources, or resources are pulled in with last asked being pulled out and that we're able to create a wider valve for more resources to reach, you know, the hands of people that are more marginalized than ourselves.

Long Live Queer Nightlife with Amin Ghaziani (57:49)

Rob Loveless

Let's introduce today's guest.

He is the Professor of Sociology and Canada Research Chair in Sexuality and Urban Studies at the University of British Columbia and the author of countless academic articles and six books, including Long Live Queer Nightlife: How the Closing of Gay Bars Sparked a Revolution.

Please welcome Amin Ghaziani.

Hi, Amin, how are you today?

Amin Ghaziani

Hi, Rob, doing really well. Thank you.

Rob Loveless 

Glad to hear. Well, thank you so much for joining.

I'm super excited to have you on today. We're going to talk all about your book, about, you know, queer nightlife.

Obviously, there is a lot that was covered in your book. What was the most surprising thing you learned through writing Long Live Queer Nightlife?

Amin Ghaziani

It's hard to pick the one single most surprising thing. Page after page, I feel like the experiences I describe are full of surprises.

But one of the most formative ones, maybe was the fact that I myself, as a person and as a researcher, can find myself at the center of a dance floor that centers me in return. The fact that I didn't realize that that was possible, the fact that that could even constitute a surprise, tells you about some potential limits of gay bars.

I want gestures to diversity, inclusion, and representativeness with phrases like everyone is welcome or love is love. They're helpful and they're important and, and I think we should continue them, but they don't always amount up to all that much in practice, particularly for racialized and trans+ people.

And so, as our community grows and evolves, so too will and should the places where we can come together to have fun and feel fellowship with each other. And I just think it was wonderful to discover that I could have that experience.

So, you know, if you want a specific example in this, would you like a specific example of this?

Rob Loveless

Absolutely, yeah.

Amin Ghaziani

One spring day, I had heard about an event that featured Bollywood imagery, and that fused Bollywood music with hip-hop as a reflection of the South Asian diasporic experience.

And I felt this vibe, as soon as I walked into the space, which is a cavernous room located about an hour's train ride from the city center near the University, which is where my flat was located. Projected on a bare white wall across from the DJ booth, I see clips of iconic Bollywood videos.

Devdas, Kuch Kuch Hota Hai, and Khabhi Kushi Kabhie Gham. They were pulsating on a packed dance floor, and when I was at the center of that dance floor, I felt like it was much more queer and less gay to me, which is a compositional and tonal shift that seems fitting for a party that night, which was called Hungama.

And Hungama is an Urdu word which loosely translates to a celebratory chaos or commotion. Vogue India describes this party and others like this, there are several, as an, quote, explosive underground scene. They call it a nightlife movement that QTBIPOC people can claim as their own.

It was just amazing that feeling to be in this space where I was surrounded by other people that looked like me. I'd never been, I'd never been at a gay bar filled with queer South Asian people playing music that reminded me of my childhood when I was growing up.

And I guess that that was a big surprise that places like this exist. And that there are so many other people like me looking for other people like ourselves. That's a beautiful thing, and that's not specific or unique to London, but these parties exist all over the world.

Rob Loveless

Going off of that too, what do you hope readers get from Long Live Queer Nightlife?

Amin Ghaziani

I guess I hope that listeners in the show and readers especially of the book, that the book will help them reorient their thoughts about what nightlife is, its many meanings, and the hopeful and joyful possibilities that await us when we prioritize redefinition over mourning and loss.

Because hope and joy are major themes and comprise a significant momentum that carries the reader through the book.

Rob Loveless

And I love the title of the book because, upon first read of the title, I feel like sometimes you see the phrase long live as, like, in memoriam to. Like you're remembering something like long live this.

So, upon initial read of the title, you might think, long live queer nightlife, it's over. Gay bars are closing. But really, after reading the book, you realize, okay, gay bars are closing, but that is not queer nightlife on its own, and there's so much more to it. That it's evolving. It's adapting.

And like you mentioned, with your own personal experiences, it's a more inclusive space where people can and should be able to see themselves beyond just being gay or, you know, whatever, they could see, body representation, you know, femme representation, racial representation, so that by the end of the book, the long live really is a celebration.

Like it is living long. It's not, it's not, you know, looking back nostalgia, better days. It's looking to the future.

Amin Ghaziani

Absolutely. The title is a play on a quintessential British expression. But in relation to royalty, it implies the preceding assumption that gay nightlife is dead.

And so, the pairing of these delicate declarations of life and death create metaphors of transferal and continuity and especially triumph. And so, it's, it's not a mourning.

It's a celebration of the unstoppable, kinetic, even, qualities of queer nightlife.

Kiss & Release with Anthony DiPietro (1:03:19)

Rob Loveless

I am very excited to introduce our next guest.

He is a gay sex poet and art administrator, and his newest book, kiss & release, was just published earlier this year. Please welcome Anthony DiPietro.

Hey, Anthony, how are you well?

Anthony DiPietro

Great, Rob. How are you?

Rob Loveless

Doing well, thank you. Thanks for coming on today.

Anthony DiPietro

Absolutely. I'm excited to be here.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. Glad to have you here.

How has your identity as a gay man played a role in shaping your poetry?

Anthony DiPietro

What I learned when I got to grad school was that I was lucky because I had, I kind of already had subject matter, and some of that was, was about being gay, but some of it was, you know, I grew up with mental illness in my household, and I had a partner who died young, and that had happened already when I got to grad school.

So, I had, you know, more than a decade of kind of adult after-college life experience. And, you know, I'm not saying it's good or bad to kind of, kind of write with much more experience or not, but in my case, it just meant that when I would sit down to write and kind of confront what, what I was going to learn today about my craft, I didn't.

I was never at a loss for words. And, you know, at the same time, I think, I don't think I really knew who I was until I got to grad school, so parts of my identity were still in sort of in formation, even though I was out from the time I was 20, I was like 33 before I went to a job, and was fully out from day one.

So, you know, that's a lot of years in between of like navigating and figuring out where you fit.

And I always wrote about, I always wrote about love and relationships and the search for love from, from just a very young age, that's what interested me, and was writing about it from, from my point of view as a gay man.

I had, I had written a complete manuscript before kiss & release that was my grad school thesis, and those poems were really all about love and longing and kind of the search for a stable sense of my identity.

But the and those were good poems, a lot of them, but the manuscript didn't really let in the outside world. It was really just kind of me talking about me, and with kiss & release, I think I figured out how to kind of let the world in and how I speak about the world, how I contend with the world.

Now that the book is out in the public, I kind of have to remind myself that the book isn't me. It's not my actual self, but at the same time, it feels so vulnerable that and there is a lot of overlap with you know, who I am and what's in the book.

But I've learned from wiser poets than me that you can only be the writer you can be. You can't, you can't, kind of get there by imitation or trying to be someone else.

So, in that sense, the book is completely gay. The book is completely related to my identity.

Episode Closing (1:06:20)

Rob Loveless

Well, I hope you enjoyed that.

Sometimes, I think looking back at the end of the year, even if we've listened to these episodes before, it might provide new opportunities to kind of hear it through a new lens and maybe kind of take away something we didn't from the first time we listened to it.

So I hope you like that. Anyway, we will be back next week with part two of the Best of Guests for 2024, so stay tuned for that.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (1:06:39)

Rob Loveless

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Mmm-bye.